There are many things I’d like to respond to, as some familiarity with Schauberger’s work, and centripetal/centrifugal forces (BD practitioner), but first, thought you might be interested in Ernst Marti’s 2 books on the Etheric, with his careful, phenomenological & threefold depiction of the etheric, elements and physical forces. Lievegoed was another who understood these fprces very well.
I could also offer something about shorting out light bulbs until making a conscious connection, many years ago, if you are interested in how I understand that now.
But there is this segment in your conversation about thinking, POF, feeling and willing I’d like to jump into, as I see so often distinction needs …hmm, more.. to understand these other capacities, so they aren’t confused with mysticism or voluntarism. Maybe this is part of the underlying development called for if etheric machines are to be made and used for the good.
In feeling, there is at one level of development the self-relational astrality ( feeling). However, further along, there is a higher level of feeling which I’ll describe , where it is more a sensing-thinking of the object of perception, belonging to the object and context of object, itself, just as the inherent thought born of the inceptual will forces of that object, can be arrived at through pure thinking.
An analogy would be just as one could perceive a textural quality objectively to a banana skin.. smooth but also with a bit of tackiness, a pull, one can cognitively apprehend the feeling of a force, an etheric imprint, another’s emotional, thought or will state. For thinking ( and Steiner talks about this, maybe in the lecture Suprasensory Knowledge?, September 26, 1923), that thinking, living thinking, pure thinking, is only the first stage of cognition, which then deepens/morphs into this higher feeling, and then into a higher will (not the willful, self interested will).
My picture is consists of this (rough sketch) : thinking is a force in common with the growth force in plants, fueled by/of Light, it is metamorphic. In rising from the intellectual soul to consciousness soul we work in a process to liberate our etheric body from being only conscious of the physical. However , we cannot “read” in this etheric until the astral body develops the organs to do so. Of course this depends on the I. We rise to the higher ego pole of the consciousness soul, which is still not the higher I, but once that’s activated we work back through the older soul sheaths in reverse, the intellectual and sentient, and forge the path to our true I.. Spirit Self,Life Spirit,Spirit Man.
Hopefully you can sense this strangely but differently similar to the plant growing & withering. For when we return to the spiritual world, we lose thinking .
Our etheric body mostly dissolves, some becomes an extract for the future. In future, Steiner saw we will no longer possess ether bodies. Likewise with the astral sheath.
Our consciousness begins, after exiting Earth, with moral feeling, discernment for the beings and phenomena we encounter, including our karma, which is also what happens while alive on Earth, if entering the astral world consciously. Fill in with Guardians of the Threshold. Remember we spend the most time post Earth, in Kamaloka, working on our astral baggage, then have to leave that behind too, in order to progress the higher spheres into the spiritual world proper.
Are you aware that Steiner determined in an experiment with Ehrenfried Pfieffer, that we …humanity…were not morally developed enough (then, and certainly I’d say now) to create etheric machines? So this begs the question, have the opponents to Reich ,Tesla, Schauberger, etc., been guided out of wisdom by the benevolent beings , to save us from ourselves until we are sound and ready?
It also appears there are plenty of devices & technologies that work in the inverse of the Strader machine, so didn’t “someone” know enough of how these oscillations work beneficially, in order to make counter currents?
Hello Donna- thank you so much for your thoughtful reading, listening, and writing!
The point you mention at the end is so important and also a question I hold. And what I am wondering: is it possible that these etheric machines, designed by an individual and only attuned to the etheric of an individual, already have that moral requirement built-in?
I was speaking with a friend yesterday-someone not involved in anthroposophy and likely unfamiliar with the prerequisite of moral development—and he mentioned the hypothesis that perhaps some of these technologies being “unrepeatable” is evidence that they already are tied to individual incarnations/expressions of people?
I am unfamiliar with Ernst Marti and will seek that out. And I just downloaded the lecture from 1923 you referenced and will read and respond back to that point. I recognize that perhaps one of the areas I seek most to understand is the proper role of emotions! Thank you 💛
My pleasure, Brook. I found you through your interview with Robert Karp, and then Angus mentioned he had connected with you. So, hi at last!
To your question , I think so, for machines of this nature would have a very different kind of elemental being, the kind Steiner mentions being born in a certain sphere at the turn into the 20th century. Your friend’s hypothesis is prescient, I think, for, due to the moral weight of such machines, that individual inventor or operator would have to be karmically responsible for everyone affected.
It’s a very helpful lecture. Do you distinguish a difference between emotions and higher feeling-sense that I briefly described?
You add important and relevant deepening to the relationships between, yet at the same time independent natures of, thinking, feeling and willing. The I is the home of these soul powers and each one can be development immeasurably both at an individual level, but also geographically. Working from my memory Steiner talks about the oriental connection with the astral feeling deepening, central Europe's (with Africa?) connection with the etheric and thinking and finally the Americas with the physical volition mysteries.
You've certainly intrigued me concerning Steiner's conversation with Pfeiffer. Where can I find out more about that? Do you have a link?
With regards to your final point. When you say inverse to the Strader machine. Do you mean machines/inventions that suck the life force out of people, leaving them "drained" ? Or did you have something else in mind.
Embodiment of the work is the “proving” of these distinctions between, for example, the way one feels about something, and, the way an object of observance/encounter projects, in astrality (also ether forces, also will). Open-minded thinking can entertain this bears truth, but only two or more people whose capacities are activated, (or, an Initiate-seer observing people clairvoyantly) can understand this mode of cognition from the point of validity. So this is always going to be a learning curve hurdle, at least until enough people can relate through these higher modes.
The reference to Pfeiffer is only available in the book, Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, A Modern Quest for the Spirit. It’s a longish passage, from section 7, where he writes of events & thoughts, in the last years Steiner was alive. I can screenshot them and send them by email, or maybe here is possible. Anyway, an important point was that the experiments pointed to astral, not the (higher and purer) etheric forces ..responding. This is why Steiner said we are not morally developed enough yet, including that the threefold Commonwealth must be established first. And this, I know from experience, is a very difficult accomplishment, though some are trying!
This point of inverse Strader machines, to clarify, can in simple, yet partial terms, indicate the diminishment of thinking, feeling & willing capacities, through unconscious, addictive use of the devices and technologies. There’s a known to many vital forces drain concealed by a kind of dopamine stimulation, and then the vicious cycle ensues.On one hand, the pulling magnetism of Ahriman’s influence, the other, the false light of Lucifer’s influence. It’s not difficult to sense this.
There’s more I’d like to say, but this is becoming long, yet that’s a starting point. I think it’s quite obvious, for some, all this is an extra inducement to develop the Consciousness Soul, while for others, compromised soul faculties are becoming an issue, and they might not even have an inkling.
BtW, Brook, you asked if anyone was working on Strader like machines, or precursors to them. There is one such person I know of, Nathaniel Williams, who has created a manually operated projection machine, whete the operators consciously move/maneuver in alignment with Goethe’s moral understanding of color. Why I see this as a precursor, I could explain in more detail.
Hello Brook, hi Angus,
There are many things I’d like to respond to, as some familiarity with Schauberger’s work, and centripetal/centrifugal forces (BD practitioner), but first, thought you might be interested in Ernst Marti’s 2 books on the Etheric, with his careful, phenomenological & threefold depiction of the etheric, elements and physical forces. Lievegoed was another who understood these fprces very well.
I could also offer something about shorting out light bulbs until making a conscious connection, many years ago, if you are interested in how I understand that now.
But there is this segment in your conversation about thinking, POF, feeling and willing I’d like to jump into, as I see so often distinction needs …hmm, more.. to understand these other capacities, so they aren’t confused with mysticism or voluntarism. Maybe this is part of the underlying development called for if etheric machines are to be made and used for the good.
In feeling, there is at one level of development the self-relational astrality ( feeling). However, further along, there is a higher level of feeling which I’ll describe , where it is more a sensing-thinking of the object of perception, belonging to the object and context of object, itself, just as the inherent thought born of the inceptual will forces of that object, can be arrived at through pure thinking.
An analogy would be just as one could perceive a textural quality objectively to a banana skin.. smooth but also with a bit of tackiness, a pull, one can cognitively apprehend the feeling of a force, an etheric imprint, another’s emotional, thought or will state. For thinking ( and Steiner talks about this, maybe in the lecture Suprasensory Knowledge?, September 26, 1923), that thinking, living thinking, pure thinking, is only the first stage of cognition, which then deepens/morphs into this higher feeling, and then into a higher will (not the willful, self interested will).
My picture is consists of this (rough sketch) : thinking is a force in common with the growth force in plants, fueled by/of Light, it is metamorphic. In rising from the intellectual soul to consciousness soul we work in a process to liberate our etheric body from being only conscious of the physical. However , we cannot “read” in this etheric until the astral body develops the organs to do so. Of course this depends on the I. We rise to the higher ego pole of the consciousness soul, which is still not the higher I, but once that’s activated we work back through the older soul sheaths in reverse, the intellectual and sentient, and forge the path to our true I.. Spirit Self,Life Spirit,Spirit Man.
Hopefully you can sense this strangely but differently similar to the plant growing & withering. For when we return to the spiritual world, we lose thinking .
Our etheric body mostly dissolves, some becomes an extract for the future. In future, Steiner saw we will no longer possess ether bodies. Likewise with the astral sheath.
Our consciousness begins, after exiting Earth, with moral feeling, discernment for the beings and phenomena we encounter, including our karma, which is also what happens while alive on Earth, if entering the astral world consciously. Fill in with Guardians of the Threshold. Remember we spend the most time post Earth, in Kamaloka, working on our astral baggage, then have to leave that behind too, in order to progress the higher spheres into the spiritual world proper.
Are you aware that Steiner determined in an experiment with Ehrenfried Pfieffer, that we …humanity…were not morally developed enough (then, and certainly I’d say now) to create etheric machines? So this begs the question, have the opponents to Reich ,Tesla, Schauberger, etc., been guided out of wisdom by the benevolent beings , to save us from ourselves until we are sound and ready?
It also appears there are plenty of devices & technologies that work in the inverse of the Strader machine, so didn’t “someone” know enough of how these oscillations work beneficially, in order to make counter currents?
Hello Donna- thank you so much for your thoughtful reading, listening, and writing!
The point you mention at the end is so important and also a question I hold. And what I am wondering: is it possible that these etheric machines, designed by an individual and only attuned to the etheric of an individual, already have that moral requirement built-in?
I was speaking with a friend yesterday-someone not involved in anthroposophy and likely unfamiliar with the prerequisite of moral development—and he mentioned the hypothesis that perhaps some of these technologies being “unrepeatable” is evidence that they already are tied to individual incarnations/expressions of people?
I am unfamiliar with Ernst Marti and will seek that out. And I just downloaded the lecture from 1923 you referenced and will read and respond back to that point. I recognize that perhaps one of the areas I seek most to understand is the proper role of emotions! Thank you 💛
My pleasure, Brook. I found you through your interview with Robert Karp, and then Angus mentioned he had connected with you. So, hi at last!
To your question , I think so, for machines of this nature would have a very different kind of elemental being, the kind Steiner mentions being born in a certain sphere at the turn into the 20th century. Your friend’s hypothesis is prescient, I think, for, due to the moral weight of such machines, that individual inventor or operator would have to be karmically responsible for everyone affected.
It’s a very helpful lecture. Do you distinguish a difference between emotions and higher feeling-sense that I briefly described?
Best wishes,
Donna
Thanks for this Donna.
You add important and relevant deepening to the relationships between, yet at the same time independent natures of, thinking, feeling and willing. The I is the home of these soul powers and each one can be development immeasurably both at an individual level, but also geographically. Working from my memory Steiner talks about the oriental connection with the astral feeling deepening, central Europe's (with Africa?) connection with the etheric and thinking and finally the Americas with the physical volition mysteries.
You've certainly intrigued me concerning Steiner's conversation with Pfeiffer. Where can I find out more about that? Do you have a link?
With regards to your final point. When you say inverse to the Strader machine. Do you mean machines/inventions that suck the life force out of people, leaving them "drained" ? Or did you have something else in mind.
Hi Angus,
Embodiment of the work is the “proving” of these distinctions between, for example, the way one feels about something, and, the way an object of observance/encounter projects, in astrality (also ether forces, also will). Open-minded thinking can entertain this bears truth, but only two or more people whose capacities are activated, (or, an Initiate-seer observing people clairvoyantly) can understand this mode of cognition from the point of validity. So this is always going to be a learning curve hurdle, at least until enough people can relate through these higher modes.
The reference to Pfeiffer is only available in the book, Ehrenfried Pfeiffer, A Modern Quest for the Spirit. It’s a longish passage, from section 7, where he writes of events & thoughts, in the last years Steiner was alive. I can screenshot them and send them by email, or maybe here is possible. Anyway, an important point was that the experiments pointed to astral, not the (higher and purer) etheric forces ..responding. This is why Steiner said we are not morally developed enough yet, including that the threefold Commonwealth must be established first. And this, I know from experience, is a very difficult accomplishment, though some are trying!
This point of inverse Strader machines, to clarify, can in simple, yet partial terms, indicate the diminishment of thinking, feeling & willing capacities, through unconscious, addictive use of the devices and technologies. There’s a known to many vital forces drain concealed by a kind of dopamine stimulation, and then the vicious cycle ensues.On one hand, the pulling magnetism of Ahriman’s influence, the other, the false light of Lucifer’s influence. It’s not difficult to sense this.
There’s more I’d like to say, but this is becoming long, yet that’s a starting point. I think it’s quite obvious, for some, all this is an extra inducement to develop the Consciousness Soul, while for others, compromised soul faculties are becoming an issue, and they might not even have an inkling.
BtW, Brook, you asked if anyone was working on Strader like machines, or precursors to them. There is one such person I know of, Nathaniel Williams, who has created a manually operated projection machine, whete the operators consciously move/maneuver in alignment with Goethe’s moral understanding of color. Why I see this as a precursor, I could explain in more detail.